Seqanswers Leaderboard Ad

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • AllSeq
    replied
    Originally posted by NGS newb View Post
    But if we used Miseq v3 kit 150 cycle, that is 2x75 paired end (if I understood that correctly) then we will not lose alot of data because we are not sequncing more than the insert size. Problem one checked, right?

    Since we are using v3 kits then I dont think so the 15GB will be a problem.
    If you cut the read length down to 2x75, you won't get the full 15Gb. The 15Gb calculation comes from 25M reads * 2X300bp reads. 2X75bp reads will yield only ~3.8Gb. And that's not really enough to fully cover an exome (especially if a portion of those reads are off-target).

    Leave a comment:


  • NGS newb
    replied
    Thanks for this great thread. I am new to this NGS so execuse me for my ignorance.

    I have some questions. As indicated above one of the main problems for exome sequencing is the relatively small exon size (on avarege 125bp). But if we used Miseq v3 kit 150 cycle, that is 2x75 paired end (if I understood that correctly) then we will not lose alot of data because we are not sequncing more than the insert size. Problem one checked, right?

    Since we are using v3 kits then I dont think so the 15GB will be a problem.

    Second issue from above discussions is due to not getting enough distrubution or coverage for all exons. And the solution for that on Miseq to run that sample multiple times to get enough coverage for all exon to call variants with confidence. Now my question is what do the NextSeq and HiSeq instrument have extra to give me a better distribution across the exome (assuming no output and reads limitations on the MiSeq system)? I also read somewhere that on HiSeq you can run the sample twice on the same flow cell? is this the reason its better, or something else? Not really sure about the Nextseq flow cell configuration, your input here will be helpful.

    A possible counter for the above issue (if I understood it correctly) in a technote by illumina "Optimizing Coverage for Targeted Resequencing" they were explaining about coverage and enrichment and gave an example (page4, you might have to see it to understand my logic below):

    lets assume I want 100x mean coverage, that is 20x desired coverage/ 0.2 mean normalized coverage; 20/0.2

    Now for the total amount of sequnencing required, that is 62 MB total targeted bases X 100x the mean coverage/ 0.65 the enrichent efficiency which equal around 9.5 GB (less than 15GB miseq maximum output); (62)x(100)/0.65

    Does that make sense or I am just talking rubbish ??

    If the above is correct, does not this save you from running the exome more than once?

    Thanks in advance

    Leave a comment:


  • Zaag
    replied
    But longer reads give a better distribution of coverage so you might get to the same % of bases covered 30x with less average coverage. Of course this does not help you find mosaicisms (my definition of a rare variant would be a variant found once in a 1000 or whatever people) as AllSeq already explained.

    Leave a comment:


  • AllSeq
    replied
    It's because the 2X150 reads don't double your coverage in this case. If the insert size were 300b or more, it would be fine. However, human exons are only about 150b long, so the 2X150 read would just read the exact same molecule twice (once from either end). You could use that info to bump up the read quality a bit (by checking each read against the other), but you can't use it to increase the read depth. Most exomes are sequenced to ~100X coverage to look for rare variants (i.e., variants in a small subpopulation of the cells used to prepare the library). Reading the same exact molecule twice doesn't help you look for rare events. I hope that explanation helps a bit.

    Leave a comment:


  • a.obeidat
    replied
    AllSeq,

    Thanks for the correction, I was half asleep when I wrote that post

    Regarding the coverage, cant you increase the depth of the sequencing and still be within the limit of the 15GB output?

    According to post #2 even if you did 150x you will get 7.5GB output of data, that is 25 million reads if using 2x150 (not sure what is the maximum reads for Miseq flow cell)

    if the above is plausible wont be 150x coverage enough to align your exomes and call your SNPs with confidence.

    Sorry in advance if I am talking rubbish but I am sort of new to this
    Last edited by a.obeidat; 07-15-2014, 01:22 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • AllSeq
    replied
    Originally posted by a.obeidat View Post
    Hello everyone, sorry to necro an old thread..

    One thing I don't understand that is why Miseq cant do exome sequencing? when you are saying exome sequencing, are you referring to all exomes in the human genome or a single or 2 exomes in a certain gene.

    Are the limitation we are talking about in terms of costs only? or in terms of technical issues? library preparation issues? what exactly??

    Lets assume I want to sequence a certain exome in gene (X), cant I design primer flank that exome and "resequence" it via Miseq?? of course I can?
    You seem to be confusing two related terms - exons and exomes. Exons are the coding regions of genes while exomes are all of the exons present in a genome. Put another way, the exome is the protein-coding portion of the genome.

    MiSeq doesn't have any problem sequencing exons or exomes. The issue is that a single run doesn't have quite enough coverage for a full human exome. This is because (as stated above), exons are relatively small, and the increased output from MiSeqs has primarily come in the form of longer reads. To get good coverage on a MiSeq, you might have to run two chips instead of one. That's why the HiSeq and now the NextSeq are probably better choices from Illumina. If you prefer Ion Torrent, the Proton P1 would be the way to go.

    If you're interested, we have summaries of the various sequencing platforms and list out which applications each is best suited for on our NGS Knowledge Bank.

    Leave a comment:


  • a.obeidat
    replied
    Hello everyone, sorry to necro an old thread..

    One thing I don't understand that is why Miseq cant do exome sequencing? when you are saying exome sequencing, are you referring to all exomes in the human genome or a single or 2 exomes in a certain gene.

    Are the limitation we are talking about in terms of costs only? or in terms of technical issues? library preparation issues? what exactly??

    Lets assume I want to sequence a certain exome in gene (X), cant I design primer flank that exome and "resequence" it via Miseq?? of course I can?

    Leave a comment:


  • epistatic
    replied
    no, see the description above regarding exon size. Our exome libraries are usually 150-200 bp insert, run PE-76. Take the yield you get from MiSeq at the shorter PE, not PE-150 or PE-250. These are good for small genomes or targeted studies but not yet for whole exome.

    I had been told to expect MiSeq V3 to be able to do an exome but now wouldn't be surprised if I believe the rumor mill of a 3rd instrument coming out that fits the niche between MiSeq and HiSeq to compete with Proton. If you could have a MidSeq that just ran the two-lane rapid flow cell and not the HT mode, like a slimmed down HiSeq 1500 Rapid only, that would be the logical Dx instrument over MiSeq. Whole exome for germline and 200 gene Foundation Med sized panels for Cancer studies are most common.

    Leave a comment:


  • ymc
    replied
    Now MiSeq can do 2x150bp at 4.5-5.1Gb. Does that mean now it can do exome in one run?

    Leave a comment:


  • ScottC
    replied
    I know this is an old thread, but for those that come across it looking for pricing estimates... be aware that Illumina's pricing for instruments and reagents vary by a large amount across the world. Often, USA and UK prices are not applicable in other countries. The pricing is not necessarily linked to exchange rate either... Our list price for the 300b kit is more than 25% higher than your quoted US prices, even though our dollar is at parity (or better).

    Cheers,

    Scott.

    Leave a comment:


  • isildur
    replied
    Thank you all for your answers and helpful explanations. All very useful information. I will look into Ion Torrent as well but I like the ease of use that miSeq will provide and according to my group we will rarely require whole exome sequencing but we will target smaller genome areas for resequencing that are associated with syndromes and diseases. Thus, I will inquire about the precise lengths of areas of interests, but I believe a single run of miSeq will suffice.
    Also fot miseq users, do you happen to know if the Agilent or Nimblegen exome enrichment kits are compatible with miSeq or I shoud stick with Illumina's Truseq?
    If you happen to have in mind a helpful publication about library preparation and designing an NGS run experiment, please share. Thanks

    Leave a comment:


  • ECO
    replied
    Thought I'd chime in here with some real-world results from our MiSeqs where it may aid this discussion.

    Right out of the box, we're getting 8-9 million 2x150 reads (at cluster densities of ~1100K/mm^2), translating to ~2.5GB. List price on the reagents/flowcell is pretty close to $950 I believe (for the 300 cycle kit), but there are discounts a fair amount lower.

    The GSJr and PGM are not even close to competitive in this space (cost, throughput, or ease of use), unless you have armies of people to keep them fed, AND you absolutely need longer than 150bp reads (GSJr).

    Leave a comment:


  • NextGenSeq
    replied
    Illumina is heavily discounting the MiSeq reagents for new customers. Your price per run is over twice the discount price.

    Leave a comment:


  • TonyBrooks
    replied
    Originally posted by Heisman View Post
    The MiSeq is actually a lot more expensive than a HiSeq in terms of per-base cost. I don't know what the cost of the instrument is relative to the HiSeq. If it's similar or you plan to do a lot of sequencing, it might be better to get the HiSeq. The real advantage of the MiSeq is that turn around time (1 day vs. ~2 weeks).
    The MiSeq is also a much cheaper piece of equipment. It depends whether you have a large enough capital budget to purchase a HiSeq. Also, the MiSeq is very easy to run, requires no additional equipment (i.e. cBot or analysis server) and has analysis software on board. The MiSeq has been designed for targeted capture and resequencing, 16s metagenomics and small genomes. For anything else, I would recommend forging connections with centres that have HiSeqs.
    GSJuniors are a bit cheaper to buy, but relatively very expensive to run (per base). I would also consider the IonTorrent as they are rapidly improving the technology, scaling up read number and increasing read-length all the time.
    It's cheaper than MiSeq to buy, cheaper to run and will hopefully hit 10m 400bp (modal) reads within a year.


    Originally posted by Heisman View Post
    50 Mb exome x 50x coverage = 2.5 GB of sequence. So if you did 2x150 PE reads, you would need (2.5x(10^9))/300 = 8.33 million reads. HOWEVER, with exome sequencing you will not get every base pair on target and you will not get completely even coverage of the whole exome. Three reasons for this:

    1. The average human exon I think is 125 bp or so. If you have a 2x150 paired end read, that is 300 bp of sequence for an exon that is only 125 bp. Right there you are losing over half of your data.

    2. The way whole exome capture works means some of your reads will align to random places on the genome. You can probably assume 65% of your reads will align to the exome, maybe more.

    3. For other technical reasons, you won't get even coverage of each exon. So you might need to sequence to an average depth of 70x or so to really get almost all of the bases at least 50x.

    Bottom line: the MiSeq is not going to give you enough reads to analyze an exome without running the same sample multiple times, and it's a lot more expensive per base than the HiSeq, so I would definitely look into this more.
    Agreed here. Purely on a cost basis, it's a very inefficient way to sequence an exome. If it was absolutely necessary, there's no reason why it can't be done. - it's just time consuming and expensive to do. Remember, you generally need >40X coverage to correctly call SNPs, the Illumina Exome kits enrich 62Mb plus enrichment only runs at 65-70% - all this means you'd probably need to do at least three runs per exome.

    UK (list) Price of the MiSeq is just under £85k. I'm not 100% on prices, but I think our rep stated it'd be about £500 per run (I assume that's the 50bp kit).

    Leave a comment:


  • Heisman
    replied
    The MiSeq is actually a lot more expensive than a HiSeq in terms of per-base cost. I don't know what the cost of the instrument is relative to the HiSeq. If it's similar or you plan to do a lot of sequencing, it might be better to get the HiSeq. The real advantage of the MiSeq is that turn around time (1 day vs. ~2 weeks).

    In terms of coverage:

    50 Mb exome x 50x coverage = 2.5 GB of sequence. So if you did 2x150 PE reads, you would need (2.5x(10^9))/300 = 8.33 million reads. HOWEVER, with exome sequencing you will not get every base pair on target and you will not get completely even coverage of the whole exome. Three reasons for this:

    1. The average human exon I think is 125 bp or so. If you have a 2x150 paired end read, that is 300 bp of sequence for an exon that is only 125 bp. Right there you are losing over half of your data.

    2. The way whole exome capture works means some of your reads will align to random places on the genome. You can probably assume 65% of your reads will align to the exome, maybe more.

    3. For other technical reasons, you won't get even coverage of each exon. So you might need to sequence to an average depth of 70x or so to really get almost all of the bases at least 50x.

    Bottom line: the MiSeq is not going to give you enough reads to analyze an exome without running the same sample multiple times, and it's a lot more expensive per base than the HiSeq, so I would definitely look into this more.

    Leave a comment:

Latest Articles

Collapse

  • seqadmin
    Exploring the Dynamics of the Tumor Microenvironment
    by seqadmin




    The complexity of cancer is clearly demonstrated in the diverse ecosystem of the tumor microenvironment (TME). The TME is made up of numerous cell types and its development begins with the changes that happen during oncogenesis. “Genomic mutations, copy number changes, epigenetic alterations, and alternative gene expression occur to varying degrees within the affected tumor cells,” explained Andrea O’Hara, Ph.D., Strategic Technical Specialist at Azenta. “As...
    07-08-2024, 03:19 PM
  • seqadmin
    Exploring Human Diversity Through Large-Scale Omics
    by seqadmin


    In 2003, researchers from the Human Genome Project (HGP) announced the most comprehensive genome to date1. Although the genome wasn’t fully completed until nearly 20 years later2, numerous large-scale projects, such as the International HapMap Project and 1000 Genomes Project, continued the HGP's work, capturing extensive variation and genomic diversity within humans. Recently, newer initiatives have significantly increased in scale and expanded beyond genomics, offering a more detailed...
    06-25-2024, 06:43 AM

ad_right_rmr

Collapse

News

Collapse

Topics Statistics Last Post
Started by seqadmin, 07-19-2024, 07:20 AM
0 responses
141 views
0 likes
Last Post seqadmin  
Started by seqadmin, 07-16-2024, 05:49 AM
0 responses
116 views
0 likes
Last Post seqadmin  
Started by seqadmin, 07-15-2024, 06:53 AM
0 responses
109 views
0 likes
Last Post seqadmin  
Started by seqadmin, 07-10-2024, 07:30 AM
0 responses
43 views
0 likes
Last Post seqadmin  
Working...
X