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Bioinformatics Lawsuit filed against Prof Giegling of Martin Luther University
Lawsuit filed against Prof Giegling of Martin Luther University, Halle: Germany has an implied 6 months probation period, during which the employer has the right to terminate a scientist/employee such as Marie Curie Experienced Researcher, without providing any reason: MC fellows are foreigners not aware of this strange law, this becomes a disadvantage to him/her. Besides the contract says that proper reasoning will be provided before deciding to terminate someone. Misusing the power, without providing any warning, Prof Giegling enters the office of newly recruited Marie Curie fellow and kicks him out of the office immediately taking away the keys.
Discussion on Marie Curie FB page follows below (https://www.facebook.com/groups/3089...artin%20luther) :
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Sebastian Steinlechner
Sebastian Steinlechner You cannot claim that this "law" (it isn't) is a disadvantage to you. The probation period will be clearly stated in your work contract. Also, e.g. the UK has up to 6 months as well, so this isn't just a "Germany is so bad" case.
Other than that, I second what Juha wrote about the behaviour of the PI.
अभय सिंह चौहान
Juha Kotimaa
Juha Kotimaa I am afraid the law seems to be clear on this matter. The only way to bring this abuse of MC grant holders to some end by this particular individual is to bring it out to EU MC administration and even better, to the press. I do not know the background of this case and whether the person has fired one or several MCs in similar manner. If there's a track record of clear abuse, I am sure the press would like to cover the story. There is nothing that universities hate more than bad press, whether their principal investigator has worked within the boundaries of law or not.
अभय सिंह चौहान
अभय सिंह चौहान Thats a great piece of advice. Do you have any contacts with the Press in Germany ?
Juha Kotimaa
Juha Kotimaa Absolutely none
If you want to take the matter to public you should understand that it is waste of time to expect any reparations or justice for you, it is highly unlikely that direct reparations as a consequence could be made as the law has been followed.
I would start with one of your local papers, or make a survey on internet based European journals which focus on employment or science. One branch of people who are always interested are trade unions. At least in Finland where I come from, they actively publish news related to their agenda and have ear with the politicians. From thereon the story might circulate further.
Just remember, your word weighs nothing, verifiable evidence does, when the journalist checks both sides of the story...
https://en.wikipedia.org/.../Education_and_Science...
Education and Science Workers' Union (Germany) - Wikipedia, the…
en.wikipedia.org
अभय सिंह चौहान
Sebastian Steinlechner
Sebastian Steinlechner I don't really know what you're trying to achieve here...
There is no law in Germany stating that you have to have 6 months probation period, but it is common to have (up to) 6 months in your contract -- just like in many other countries. Remember that after those 6 months, you are quite well protected in Germany. But in any way, it's in your contract, you signed it, therefore you have to live with it. Taking things any further in court will lead to exactly nothing, unless there has been harassment or similar things (in which case you probably wouldn't want to continue the contract anyway).
I have not really heard of researchers being fired, especially when they along their own money, so I can only speculate what happened here. In any case, this is between you and your (former) boss, where things apparently didn't work out the way they should have. If this makes you want to leave Germany, then so be it. However it seems a bit unfair to project your experience in this particular case onto a whole country, doesn't it?
PS: there doesn't seem to be a Prof. Giegling in Halle?
Juha Kotimaa
Juha Kotimaa Well, in case of the MC the money pretty much never comes with the student, the principal investigator is part of consortium and the money stays with the prof. I think the prof has to have the person filling the position, but considering the poor level of auditing, some malpractice probably occurs every now and then,
I personally do not understand the possible motivation behind the scheme. The students are pretty good deal for the researcher, and within 6 months not many PhD students can contribute major breakthroughs or technological innovations that the PI could exploit...
Sebastian Steinlechner
Sebastian Steinlechner Ah, I was assuming this is about an individual fellowship since he was talking about experienced researchers?
अभय सिंह चौहान
.
Dimitris Skempes
Dimitris Skempes File the case to the European Ombudsmen
अभय सिंह चौहान
अभय सिंह चौहान Dimitris Skempes can you please provide some contacts, links, and guidelines how to go about it.
Giulio Pergola
Giulio Pergola Dear Abhai, I've been working in Germany as MC fellow for several years. I think the first person you would want to speak with is the coordinator of the programme, e.g. the chair of the consortium. Otherwise, you should probably talk to the Human Resources office of the University before bringing the case outside. It is likely they will remediate the case somehow. Even if truly the boss had the right to do what he/she did, it is likely that the HR office is interested in hearing the story and compensate the fellow somehow. If this is not the case, then please mind that EU projects have european monitors assigned. You could contact the monitor to ask about any break of the protocol.
अभय सिंह चौहान
अभय सिंह चौहान Giulio Pergola : All the steps you specified were being followed, but none said that they can be of any help. They all said that the employer has complete right to fire someone without any reason in the first 6 months, and that too without any warning.
Giulio Pergola
Giulio Pergola Abhai, if this has been done already with no avail, then I would probably drop the case. Simple reason: it is difficult to disentagle in which territories of the law the nation or Europe are sovereign. If Germany has such a law, then it is a matter of international right whether the EU or German law are followed. I would suppose there is some agreement about how to spend european money but in the end the state law is sovreign.
If the story boils down to "be careful with your boss the first 6 months, that's it", I would look for another job anywhere and very quickly, since that story might not be the best business card in the field.
अभय सिंह चौहान
अभय सिंह चौहान Can anyone provide me contact with a suitable lawyer to deal with the case ?
Karthik Raman
Karthik Raman Abhai Chauhan Sa,
Firstly, deepest sympathies to whatever has happened.
sometimes when luck is not in our favour, despite full efforts, things go wrong.- which i suppose mite have happened in ur case too..
i would like to humbly suggest, that you please drop this matter here and channelize all your enthusiasm and energy in looking for another MC funded ESR position, so you do not fall out of the 4 year time limit after ur master degree graduation.
On the whole, the university and professor will always ensure, that the student be in the rough due to their problems. So i suggest once again, please dont get into these legal and complicate life for urself in a foreign land.
i hope to have appealed to your heart and we all wish you success in looking for another position.
I think many ppl here will agree to what i have told.
अभय सिंह चौहान
अभय सिंह चौहान Dude... I would like to explore possibilty before dropping the case completely. Should you know of any contacts do let me know.
Karthik Raman
Karthik Raman Pm me
अभय सिंह चौहान
Karthik Raman
Karthik Raman Abhai Chauhan Sa have u spoken to ur grant manager and the professor incharge of ur consortium??
अभय सिंह चौहान
अभय सिंह चौहान Yes.
Karthik Raman
Karthik Raman What does your grant manager and ur professor incharge of ur consortium say??
अभय सिंह चौहान
अभय सिंह चौहान Nothing
अभय सिंह चौहान
.
Karthik Raman
Karthik Raman now i wud wish to ask u another question. pls dont mistake or mis understand me.
how was ur approach towards the project, ur professor, deadlines, the university and various aspects related to the project ?
The prof would have stated some reasons to the university, which would have given him the authority to dethrone u from the position.
one thing u need ot bear in mind, as u r employed by the university and guided/supervised by ur professor and not employed by him.
pls clarify this
अभय सिंह चौहान
अभय सिंह चौहान The German employers do NOT need a reason. THere can be political lobying by your colleagues to kick you out due to insecurity reasons. The case is still ongoing in courts in Germany.
Karthik Raman
Karthik Raman Abbi Vatsa Then what abt the job security in the German job market ?
अभय सिंह चौहान
अभय सिंह चौहान No job security within 6 months, that too they don't make it clear in contract written in German not in English as a picture file that cant even be translated.
Discussion on Marie Curie FB page follows below (https://www.facebook.com/groups/3089...artin%20luther) :
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sebastian Steinlechner
Sebastian Steinlechner You cannot claim that this "law" (it isn't) is a disadvantage to you. The probation period will be clearly stated in your work contract. Also, e.g. the UK has up to 6 months as well, so this isn't just a "Germany is so bad" case.
Other than that, I second what Juha wrote about the behaviour of the PI.
अभय सिंह चौहान
Juha Kotimaa
Juha Kotimaa I am afraid the law seems to be clear on this matter. The only way to bring this abuse of MC grant holders to some end by this particular individual is to bring it out to EU MC administration and even better, to the press. I do not know the background of this case and whether the person has fired one or several MCs in similar manner. If there's a track record of clear abuse, I am sure the press would like to cover the story. There is nothing that universities hate more than bad press, whether their principal investigator has worked within the boundaries of law or not.
अभय सिंह चौहान
अभय सिंह चौहान Thats a great piece of advice. Do you have any contacts with the Press in Germany ?
Juha Kotimaa
Juha Kotimaa Absolutely none
If you want to take the matter to public you should understand that it is waste of time to expect any reparations or justice for you, it is highly unlikely that direct reparations as a consequence could be made as the law has been followed. I would start with one of your local papers, or make a survey on internet based European journals which focus on employment or science. One branch of people who are always interested are trade unions. At least in Finland where I come from, they actively publish news related to their agenda and have ear with the politicians. From thereon the story might circulate further.
Just remember, your word weighs nothing, verifiable evidence does, when the journalist checks both sides of the story...
https://en.wikipedia.org/.../Education_and_Science...
Education and Science Workers' Union (Germany) - Wikipedia, the…
en.wikipedia.org
अभय सिंह चौहान
Sebastian Steinlechner
Sebastian Steinlechner I don't really know what you're trying to achieve here...
There is no law in Germany stating that you have to have 6 months probation period, but it is common to have (up to) 6 months in your contract -- just like in many other countries. Remember that after those 6 months, you are quite well protected in Germany. But in any way, it's in your contract, you signed it, therefore you have to live with it. Taking things any further in court will lead to exactly nothing, unless there has been harassment or similar things (in which case you probably wouldn't want to continue the contract anyway).
I have not really heard of researchers being fired, especially when they along their own money, so I can only speculate what happened here. In any case, this is between you and your (former) boss, where things apparently didn't work out the way they should have. If this makes you want to leave Germany, then so be it. However it seems a bit unfair to project your experience in this particular case onto a whole country, doesn't it?
PS: there doesn't seem to be a Prof. Giegling in Halle?
Juha Kotimaa
Juha Kotimaa Well, in case of the MC the money pretty much never comes with the student, the principal investigator is part of consortium and the money stays with the prof. I think the prof has to have the person filling the position, but considering the poor level of auditing, some malpractice probably occurs every now and then,
I personally do not understand the possible motivation behind the scheme. The students are pretty good deal for the researcher, and within 6 months not many PhD students can contribute major breakthroughs or technological innovations that the PI could exploit...
Sebastian Steinlechner
Sebastian Steinlechner Ah, I was assuming this is about an individual fellowship since he was talking about experienced researchers?
अभय सिंह चौहान
.
Dimitris Skempes
Dimitris Skempes File the case to the European Ombudsmen
अभय सिंह चौहान
अभय सिंह चौहान Dimitris Skempes can you please provide some contacts, links, and guidelines how to go about it.
Giulio Pergola
Giulio Pergola Dear Abhai, I've been working in Germany as MC fellow for several years. I think the first person you would want to speak with is the coordinator of the programme, e.g. the chair of the consortium. Otherwise, you should probably talk to the Human Resources office of the University before bringing the case outside. It is likely they will remediate the case somehow. Even if truly the boss had the right to do what he/she did, it is likely that the HR office is interested in hearing the story and compensate the fellow somehow. If this is not the case, then please mind that EU projects have european monitors assigned. You could contact the monitor to ask about any break of the protocol.
अभय सिंह चौहान
अभय सिंह चौहान Giulio Pergola : All the steps you specified were being followed, but none said that they can be of any help. They all said that the employer has complete right to fire someone without any reason in the first 6 months, and that too without any warning.
Giulio Pergola
Giulio Pergola Abhai, if this has been done already with no avail, then I would probably drop the case. Simple reason: it is difficult to disentagle in which territories of the law the nation or Europe are sovereign. If Germany has such a law, then it is a matter of international right whether the EU or German law are followed. I would suppose there is some agreement about how to spend european money but in the end the state law is sovreign.
If the story boils down to "be careful with your boss the first 6 months, that's it", I would look for another job anywhere and very quickly, since that story might not be the best business card in the field.
अभय सिंह चौहान
अभय सिंह चौहान Can anyone provide me contact with a suitable lawyer to deal with the case ?
Karthik Raman
Karthik Raman Abhai Chauhan Sa,
Firstly, deepest sympathies to whatever has happened.
sometimes when luck is not in our favour, despite full efforts, things go wrong.- which i suppose mite have happened in ur case too..
i would like to humbly suggest, that you please drop this matter here and channelize all your enthusiasm and energy in looking for another MC funded ESR position, so you do not fall out of the 4 year time limit after ur master degree graduation.
On the whole, the university and professor will always ensure, that the student be in the rough due to their problems. So i suggest once again, please dont get into these legal and complicate life for urself in a foreign land.
i hope to have appealed to your heart and we all wish you success in looking for another position.
I think many ppl here will agree to what i have told.
अभय सिंह चौहान
अभय सिंह चौहान Dude... I would like to explore possibilty before dropping the case completely. Should you know of any contacts do let me know.
Karthik Raman
Karthik Raman Pm me
अभय सिंह चौहान
Karthik Raman
Karthik Raman Abhai Chauhan Sa have u spoken to ur grant manager and the professor incharge of ur consortium??
अभय सिंह चौहान
अभय सिंह चौहान Yes.
Karthik Raman
Karthik Raman What does your grant manager and ur professor incharge of ur consortium say??
अभय सिंह चौहान
अभय सिंह चौहान Nothing
अभय सिंह चौहान
.
Karthik Raman
Karthik Raman now i wud wish to ask u another question. pls dont mistake or mis understand me.
how was ur approach towards the project, ur professor, deadlines, the university and various aspects related to the project ?
The prof would have stated some reasons to the university, which would have given him the authority to dethrone u from the position.
one thing u need ot bear in mind, as u r employed by the university and guided/supervised by ur professor and not employed by him.
pls clarify this
अभय सिंह चौहान
अभय सिंह चौहान The German employers do NOT need a reason. THere can be political lobying by your colleagues to kick you out due to insecurity reasons. The case is still ongoing in courts in Germany.
Karthik Raman
Karthik Raman Abbi Vatsa Then what abt the job security in the German job market ?
अभय सिंह चौहान
अभय सिंह चौहान No job security within 6 months, that too they don't make it clear in contract written in German not in English as a picture file that cant even be translated.